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For Weejan re.Andrew Hardie of 1820

This ended up being a bit long and in danger of derailing the thread of which it was born.  So, to recap, weejan mentioned Andrew Hardie (murdered by the state in 1820), but the thread was heading towards important stuff like fishing and jam and very probably crayfish.

So I'll see whether I can import what was a reply to that thread into here without making a mess.

weejan wrote:
If I remember correctly, then Wilson and Hardie were reburied in Sighthill Cemetery and there is a monument there.
I will have to check that is correct though...

Yes they were, and yes there is and it is all correct.  Smile      I have seen it and it is there.   Honest, definitely re-interred in Sighthill and definitely their grave and monument there.   Also, the 1820 Society (plus anybody else who wishes to go along) always holds a wreath-laying remembrance ceremony every September.

I don't think my computer is going to play nicely with Photobucket just now, as it goes very slow.  So I can't post pics but can post links instead, if you would like to see. Actually better, as links have more info than the pics alone.

Views of the monument - although it's really their gravestone - perhaps "monument" sounded more grand?   Ah, I just realised.  It is indeed where Andrew Hardie and John Baird are under the ground, but it is also a monument and a memorial to all the others, including James Wilson, (buried in Strathaven) and those who were transported to New South Wales.

Also, I like this wee detail, about going to search for Hardie and Baird in their unmarked grave in order to re-bury them.  I suppose you will already have read this story, weejan, but I repeat it for interest's sake anyway.

... An honorable burial

The dismembered bodies were buried in a single grave outside Stirling Castle, where they remained for 27 years. It was then decided by Glasgow Radicals to give them an honourable burial. A party of Radicals travelled from Glasgow to Stirling to find the grave, but the grave was unmarked. However an old man named Thomas Chalmers, pointed out a particular spot claiming this to be the grave. After much doubt and considerable digging they came upon the bones of two bodies. The old man had been accurate in his pinpointing the spot as the bones could be identified by the smashed jawbone of Baird. They were disinterred and reverently buried in Sighthill Cemetery in the north of Glasgow and an inscribed monument erected by public subscription.


I just somehow like the fact that it depended on meeting this good old bod, and I daresay they thought to themselves, these keen and no doubt younger people, "oh yeah, so here's an old man, and can he be sure about that?" then "Oh! The wise old man was wise after all and we shouldn't have doubted so much".      There is something very folk-tale about that.  In fact I'm amazed there isn't a whole big ballad that takes thirty-seven verses to tell the tale.  

Ah, but there probably is.   Somewhere.

Oh, I expect weejan has seen these before, but anyway, two last letters from Andrew Hardie, " the former written to his Uncle, dated Stirling Castle, 5th September, and the latter to his Sweetheart the night preceding his Execution, dated 7th Sept. 1820.'

One of your liks doesn't W***, hen.
I think it was supposed to be:-

Fascinating stuff - of which, I'm embarrassed to say, I previously knew very little.

Scotland free or a desert.

That was the banner of the 1820 radicals.

thanks for these posts. It was good to read them again.
Somewhere I have the words that 5xg granny wrote on a card to display in her window so I will try to find them next.
I did not expect these people to be so well educated and able to express themselves in such a way as they did but it does give me a little buzz of pride to have come from such a family.

Well educated? The slogan on the radicals' banner is obviously a reference to the speech attributed to Calgacus, the Caledonians' leader, delivered before the Battle of Mons Graupius. There's few enough Scots who know of it today, so I'd say they were definitely well educated.

It is worth remembering that Scotland was the first country in the world to have a policy of a school in every parish so that every man or woman could read the Bible for him/herself. Scotland produced a ploughman poet and a shepherd novelist before the 19th Century.

This may throw further light on the radicals transported to NSW

The nineteen Radicals whose ages ranged from the youngest, Alexander Johnston (15) to the oldest, Thomas McFarlane (45), originally sentenced to death, subsequently commuted to transportation to New South Wales were:

Name | Occupation | Location | Penalty imposed
John Anderson | Weaver | Camelon | Life
John Barr | Weaver | Condorrat | 14 years
William Clackson or Clarkson | Shoemaker | Glasgow | 14 years
James Clelland | Blacksmith | Glasgow | Life
Andrew Dawson | Nailer | Camelon | Life
Robert Gray | Weaver | Glasgow | Life
Alexander Hart | Cabinet-maker | Glasgow | 14 years
Alexander Johnston | Weaver | Glasgow | 14 years
Alexander Latimer | Weaver | Glasgow | 14 years
Thomas McCulloch | Stocking-Weaver | Glasgow | 14 years
Thomas McFarlane | Weaver | Condorrat | Life
John McMillan | Nailer | Camelon | Life
Benjamin Moir | Labourer | Glasgow | 14 years
Allan Murchie | Blacksmith | Glasgow | Life
Thomas Pike or Pink | Muslin Slinger | Glasgow | 14 years
William Smith | Weaver | Glasgow | 14 years
David Thompson | Weaver | Glasgow | 14 years
Andrew White | Bookbinder | Glasgow | 14 years
James Wright | Tailor | Glasgow | 14 Years

James Clelland was to be executed along with Baird and Hardie on Friday 8th September, but three days before he was to die, his sentence was commuted to transportation for life in New South Wales.

William Crawford, Balfron, was sentenced with the above but was ‘subsequently released’ according to ‘The Scottish Radicals. Tried and Transported to Australia for Treason in 1820’. John Anderson Jnr., a printer in Glasgow, was ‘transported’ on 4 August 1820 to a Government job in the East Indies for the price of his silence. He had prepared the final draft of the 1820 Proclamation and was probably arrested on Friday 7 April 1820 in order that he could not divulge the ‘truth’ to the Radicals.

As usual Oz,
Well done laddie.
I wonder how many of us on this wee forum have had ancestors sent awa' to the OZ place?

bormes wrote:
As usual Oz,
Well done laddie.
I wonder how many of us on this wee forum have had ancestors sent awa' to the OZ place?

Weell er ummm its like this ye see.

One of my predecedants  did his bit in the taking away he was the captain of a transport in which he  did 4 trips to NSW in the 1820s  before settling there  Confused

It is an incredible journey by sea even in modern ships, what a journey it must have been in those days.
Imagine the seas and conditions, even putting into a Port for revictualling or for emergency repair would have been daunting, wondering how safe it was to dock.
Amazing spirit and adventure.

Unveiling of the Bonnymuir Memorial in 2007:

Ahmur sorry tae say nane o mines wis exiled at way. A couple went oot oanra £10 passage but at's it. Wanny ra Oirish wans left fur Noo Yawk durin ra tattie famine but he came back 15 year efter an marriet ma Scots great-great-grannie. He'd made a few bob assa blacksmith an bawt a wee boatyerd wi a cussin. Long gone noo but twa o his build ur still sailin weel ower a cenchury later.

From article on my Rellies ship

Mangles: Convict Ship 1824
"Mutiny" on the Mangles The mutiny on the Mangles, 1824 was as tame and half-hearted affair as that on the Ocean. Sailing from Portsmouth on July 13 with male convicts, the Mangles touched at Teneriffe, and after leaving the latter port an informer disclosed that the prisoners, assisted by some members of the crew, intended to rise and take the ship. Some credence was lent to the story by the fact that the seamen had been grumbling openly because the master had made a search of their chests in consequence of some paltry thefts. The sentinels were therefore increased from four to six and a rack was built on the poop for the guards' muskets which were now kept loaded. "The convicts have lately been observed talking in bodies in whispers together," the commander of the guard, Lieutenant Dalrymple, wrote in a report on August 19, "and making remarks to the men and sentinels of the 40th, such as, 'We cannot all be hanged and they can but transport us again if we are caught'. 'if we had you ashore' and 'We could easily break the stanchions of the prison if we chose'". The convicts no doubt got a lot of satisfaction out of ribbing their guards, but the effect of their threats and boasting was to induce the officers to accept the story told to them by the informer. According to him the rising was planned to take place when the hatches were opened at 6 a.m. one morning and most of the soldiers were below. The convicts were to rush the cabin, seize what arms they could, and block the hatchway leading to the guards' sleeping quarters, where, until the erection of the rack on the poop, the arms had been kept. The reality proved very different. A sentry gave the alarm at about 7 p.m. on August 15 and the guard and crew at once mustered under arms. "The sentinel had heard a noise, as if the prisoners were rushing to the hatchway," stated Dalrymple in his report. "As they had been quiet just before he thought they were making good their escape." This incident, which existed probably only in the overwrought imagination of the sentry, constituted the only attempt at mutiny on board the Mangles. Attribution: Charles Bateson, The Convict Ships 1787 - 1868 © All Rights Reserved 1988 Library of Australian History, Sydney NSW. Edited by Barry Robson Lazarus arrived in Australia 1824 on the convict ship 'Mangles' in the good company of 189 other male convicts, it's 3rd such voyage. The vessel departed Plymouth on the 6th July 1824, arriving 106 days later at Port Jackson on the 27th October 1824. Attribution: Extract from the "Moodie Connections" by Ruth Rodgers Image: © All Rights Reserved State Library of Victoria If you are related we invite you to contribute, exchange images and information or add to this gallery. Contact us:

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